tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post6642001673041539948..comments2024-03-25T19:47:36.154-07:00Comments on Goblin Punch: Specialization and Assumed CompetenceArnold Khttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-28999499421159197092014-02-18T16:03:16.681-08:002014-02-18T16:03:16.681-08:00I think a lot of folks don't bother using the ...I think a lot of folks don't bother using the rules that are there most of the time. If your game has reaction rolls everyone can sweat-talk the ogres (if lucky). Morale rules make it possible to spook lord dark's minions.Anyone should have a chance to find a pit with a 10' pole. Some attempts to improve have been downgrades without a doubt. <br /><br />But everyone can't pick locks, everyone doesn't ride really well, or swim well , or have a knack for tracking. There should be a "can try it" degree of competence for the common tasks just mentioned but the specialist is going to be much much better. JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-4499395083765585252014-02-18T13:32:26.407-08:002014-02-18T13:32:26.407-08:00“I can also think of many dozens of films that are...“I can also think of many dozens of films that are all about getting the right specialist for a role in the film (certainly so in crime films) so the importance of the specialist is out there and something players are aware of.”<br /><br />But that’s not the issue I’ve seen come up in games. The kind of thing I see is the sort of things where the knight loses his sword and can’t fight unarmed. When the reality is that anyone who trains in the use of a sword (practically rather than as a hobby) gets training in unarmed, dagger, sword in one hand, sword and buckler, sword in two hands, etc. Indeed, unarmed techniques are an integral part of fighting even when you have the sword in your hands. Not to mention that a lot of the principles behind fighting techniques can be applied to ways of fighting you’ve never trained specifically for.<br /><br />Fine-grained skills often fall into this trap for a couple of reasons. Firstly, because the system may lack any notion of these relationships between skills. Secondly, because the player given a budget doesn’t catch on that they really should buy a broader base of skills.<br /><br />If you divide things up at a higher level than most skill systems, however, you do have the case where the specialist can be required without having characters with strangely narrow skill bases or a complex system to enforce a broader skill base.<br /><br />Or, like Arnold said, maybe if you just need skills limited to the professional realm and not the “common stuff any adventurer could do”, you eliminate most of the stuff that drives me nuts.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-90056762770259236822014-02-18T11:57:00.793-08:002014-02-18T11:57:00.793-08:00"what really happens is that your character i..."what really happens is that your character is not very good at a list of things and horrible at everything else" just like reality. How many things do most of us have thousands or even tens if thousands of hours of practice and application? <br /><br />What if adventures aren't written to character roles and specializations but instead are presented as the situation that is and it's up to the players to deal with it not a specific set of numbers on a sheet.<br /><br /> I can also think of many dozens of films that are all about getting the right specialist for a role in the film (certainly so in crime films) so the importance of the specialist is out there and something players are aware of. The computer hacker doesn't beat the kungfu master in a fist fight, the lambada dancer doesn't beat the sniper in a contest of marksmanship, Tony Montana might be a crime boss but he isn't sneaking into a diamond exchange and walking away with a bag full of diamonds is he?JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-26554261513339868752014-02-18T06:46:42.448-08:002014-02-18T06:46:42.448-08:00“I think his argument against them works just as w...“I think his argument against them works just as well as your argument for them.” Just to clarify, I think he says professional skills don’t fit because they don’t have a real impact on the game. I think you are saying professional skills do fit because they don’t have a real impact on the game. Same argument, different (and equally valid) conclusions. ^_^Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-26289645809722384612014-02-18T06:43:59.201-08:002014-02-18T06:43:59.201-08:00Rougeattorney had a great post on types of skills ...Rougeattorney had a great post on types of skills and which fit in the game on DF. I can’t find the direct link, but I summarized it here:<br /><br />http://web.fisher.cx/robert/infogami/On_general_skills_in_classic_D&D<br /><br />I think the ones you like would fall under his “professional skill” category. I think his argument against them works just as well as your argument for them. ^_^<br /><br />My current thoughts are looking to something along the lines of <i>Barbarians of Lemuria’s</i> careers, <i>Lejendary Adventures’</i> abilities, or <i>Risus’</i> clichés. More like classes than skills, but perhaps a bit more fine-grained than classes. Also, I’d like to do less “one roll resolution” and more “many rolls with decision points between them” to resolve actions.<br /><br />Incidentally, when looking for a link to RA’s Dragonsfoot post, I found an article I wrote on this topic in 2008 (for a publication that never got off the ground) titled “Evolving towards incompetence”. I’d completely forgotten about it. If only present me were actually the accumulated wisdom of the past mes. ^_^Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-65090708939791767152014-02-18T00:04:44.086-08:002014-02-18T00:04:44.086-08:00GUMSHOE also has a cool idea, where skills are sor...GUMSHOE also has a cool idea, where skills are sorta nebulously defined, and many problems could be solved by many different skills (or combinations of skills). That ambiguity is good for encouraging players to think of off-label ways to use their skils.<br /><br />Everyone has their own preferences, but for my games I'm starting to think that skills are useful and appropriate in a game when they are technical, knowledge, or trade skills. (No stealth, perception, athletic, or social skills.) <br /><br />Because those skills still allow for meaningful, flavorful differentiation of characters, but the game never grinds to a halt without them and they're occasionally useful. They don't carry a lot of life-and-death weight, so to speak.Arnold Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-75817914926766599182014-02-18T00:00:07.175-08:002014-02-18T00:00:07.175-08:00Oh man, I have another essay to write about how a ...Oh man, I have another essay to write about how a system can support of discourage situation engineering like that.<br /><br />And inflation is an appropriate and fiscally hilarious term for it.<br /><br />"Your sword does 1 damage to the dragon."<br />"But this is a +1 sword!"<br />"Sorry. Inflation. You should have invested in gold."Arnold Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-41458319129365250832014-02-17T20:50:49.615-08:002014-02-17T20:50:49.615-08:00This is my problem with most RPGs. A bunch of skil...This is my problem with most RPGs. A bunch of skills is supposed to mean you can built exactly the character you want. But what really happens is that your character is not very good at a list of things and horrible at everything else. There are lots of ways to address it, but they’re all just workarounds.<br /><br />The great thing about early D&D is that because it left so much unaddressed, it is assumed that everyone could do just about anything, and that generally they’d succeed without a roll. (And if you didn’t play it that way, I can’t imagine you stuck with it long.)<br /><br />Also, I find early Traveller’s low number of skills per character encourages thinking of them as things that the character is especially good at instead of the only things they can do. Though it isn’t completely immune to the problems of skill systems either.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-78745970264819673012014-02-17T17:10:07.660-08:002014-02-17T17:10:07.660-08:00In a lot of OSR D&D stuff, the sweet spot seem...In a lot of OSR D&D stuff, the sweet spot seems to be in the 1/3 to 1/6 success rate - corresponding to rolling a 13 (about 1/3) up to an 18 (about 1/6) on a d20. That's a pretty common range for "to-hit roll needed" and "saving throw target number" at lower levels. See also the LotFP skill system with its universal 1 in 6 chance, or http://www.necropraxis.com/2013/10/09/a-method-of-play/Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07649420272387984400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-19816518296608439862014-02-17T14:02:37.004-08:002014-02-17T14:02:37.004-08:00Agreed. I think it is worth mentioning, though, th...Agreed. I think it is worth mentioning, though, that circumventing the dice is a part of player skill as well. A +1 sneak is identical to a +15 sneak if you can make a distraction to draw guards away so that you do not actually need to make a sneak roll at all.<br /><br />Just as an aside, what you describe is basically an inflation effect. If you give person A some amount of extra money (expanding the money supply while keeping the supply of other goods constant), prices increase for everybody, assuming the increase in question is above the threshold of market sensitivity (which it often is not in the case of an individual in a modern economy but almost certainly is in the case of an adventurer's ability compared to the challenges of a particular game site).Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.com