tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post3857202810935433691..comments2024-03-25T19:47:36.154-07:00Comments on Goblin Punch: Stat Squish and the Lawful RollArnold Khttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-76254749130458181682021-05-14T07:10:47.474-07:002021-05-14T07:10:47.474-07:00I love it, but is the strength bonus applied to da...I love it, but is the strength bonus applied to damage? I feel a d6+8 is an awful lot for ennemies with 15 HP...Sébastien P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15942276905746493680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-78659515148503772582020-05-01T11:47:17.014-07:002020-05-01T11:47:17.014-07:00I have to disagree, and I think this comment made ...I have to disagree, and I think this comment made me realize why I'm a little miffed by these changes. There's a very elegant solution to the problem of roll-under combat: you have to roll under your attack and over your enemy's defense, which would now be from 0-10, not 10-20 (and is easy to translate, just subtract 10 from the old defense). That's how Whitehack does it and it works out really well. It also allows you to have players roll all the dice in combat, since they can roll under their defense and over their enemy's attack to see if they're hit.<br /><br />A lot of the issues with roll-under systems stem, at least from my perspective, from a desire to do everything the way things are traditionally done. We roll 3D6 for stats and the max is 18 - but what if we rolled 2D6+3 and the max was 15? Or 3D6/2 as above, but plus 5? Suddenly the problem roll-under systems have with high stats being too strong is not that big of an issue, since you are at best only 1.5x better than average, a number that's pretty close to the math in this new system. (And the average is actually 10 and not 10.5, which warms my nerdy heart.)<br /><br />I know people never agree on what OSR means but I've always preferred "Old School Renaissance" to the other terms because of the meaning it carries. The Renaissance wasn't about going back and doing things they way they were done in the past - European scholars had already been drawing heavily on Classical and Islamic scholars for centuries. It was about surpassing the old thinkers, picking up the torch and going forward with new ideas. This is a very poetic way about talking about what type of roll to use when playing elfgames, but that's why I really love the GLOG and systems like it. They're not afraid to try new things. (Which, to be fair, is still what this is - I prefer roll under, but I do like the idea of lawful vs chaotic rolls!)Malcolm Svenssonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324502676937817722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-24693946911440363392020-04-30T09:51:08.130-07:002020-04-30T09:51:08.130-07:00All good points.
Prior to 3E, there was more em...All good points. <br /><br />Prior to 3E, there was more emphasis on defining abilities by class rather than by stats. A fighter would have a better chance to kick down a door because he was a fighter, not because he was stronger. So they differentiated characters along a slightly different axis, but they still gave them disparate abilities.<br /><br />The GLOG uses ability checks for things that the average character would have a 50% chance of success at. Nearly everyone will have a success chance in the 40-60% range, and only a rare outlier will have a success chance of 30% or 70%. That seems to be about where I want it, for the average check.<br /><br />Stats are nice because they're flexible (you can theoretically apply them to any sort of attempt) and they don't change too much over a character's career (unlike attack rolls or saves in other games).<br /><br />I call for ability checks whenever I need to resolve that ~50% successful action. There are lots of other methods. DM Fiat ("That seems like it would have a 2-in-6 chance of working to me"). Class-based ability ("Kicking down a door is a fightery action, and you're a level 4 fighter, so you have a 4-in-6 chance of success"). As a skill ("You have 4 ranks in door kicking").<br /><br />Out of all of those, the ability score check seems the most preferrable.<br /><br />As to the distinction between Saves and regular checks--there really isn't one. I was never a fan of the whole active/reactive divide. I do intend for Saves to be difficult, though, since they are *saves*--a last, undeserved chance to avoid a bad outcome. I thought about removing the word entirely but kept it because (a) it's cool to say save vs death, and (b) I wanted a form of diagetic improvement, where people who nearly died of poison once would be more resistant to dying from it again.<br /><br />The decision to use Dex, Con, and Cha as the default saves was partially done to balance the utility of the different ability scores (especially Cha).Arnold Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-44967937565295152492020-04-30T09:33:44.479-07:002020-04-30T09:33:44.479-07:00Agreed.Agreed.Arnold Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-76868874573740421482020-04-30T01:01:13.146-07:002020-04-30T01:01:13.146-07:00So, as a novice rules hacker, I've had plenty ...So, as a novice rules hacker, I've had plenty of time to think about this as of late, and I have to ask: What is the purpose of ability checks in the GLOG, as you see it?<br /><br />D&D prior to 3E either didn't have or barely used ability checks, and most modern OSR systems focus everything on the saving throw. (Into the Odd basically reduced ability scores to the three save stats from 3E, Knave basically replaces the five original save stats with the six ability scores, etc.)<br /><br />GLOG's general philosophy toward ability checks seems to mirror saving throws in many ways; instructions are to only call for them in risky situations. But saving throws are a separate mechanic, as you detail in another post, with DC 20 instead of 16.<br /><br />So, when should the GM call for an ability check? If there is no danger, don't call for one; if there is danger, call for a saving throw. The Authority forbid you call for an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma check to remember, perceive, or persuade, which are the primary functions of those ability checks in post-3E D&D.<br /><br />I hope I am not coming across as overly critical here: I like ability checks too. Part of the reason I'm asking all this is to find some justification to keep them in my own game!Tim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09430001792622615524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-867176453314602422020-04-17T14:51:57.212-07:002020-04-17T14:51:57.212-07:00I'm still trying to decide on the best way to ...I'm still trying to decide on the best way to improve stats, but I'm thinking that whenever you level up, pick a stat and roll d6+d4. If you get over your current stat, it increases by 1 point.<br /><br />Playing around with: if you fail that check, you can reattempt it, but with a random stat (instead of a chosen stat).Arnold Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-39245443126952841562020-04-17T14:50:25.094-07:002020-04-17T14:50:25.094-07:00Huh. I should probably get around to reading Tali...Huh. I should probably get around to reading Talislanta. That's really cool.Arnold Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-33752236195744196292020-04-17T14:45:13.140-07:002020-04-17T14:45:13.140-07:00Save is just your Cha bonus. It no longer increas...Save is just your Cha bonus. It no longer increases with level. When something *almost* kills you, you get a permanent bonus to that type of Save. DC for most Saves is 20, so Saves are tough.Arnold Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-64765503599609261962020-04-17T13:08:52.790-07:002020-04-17T13:08:52.790-07:00The base Save is 5 + CHA Bonus, which, for average...The base Save is 5 + CHA Bonus, which, for average characters, works out to be 5+0=5. <br /><br />So just make Save identical to CHA + any additional bonuses from class or race. Callmesalticidaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12204286369029988757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-8410912201166116362020-04-08T11:29:00.515-07:002020-04-08T11:29:00.515-07:00I think Roll Under was great for stuff like stat t...I think Roll Under was great for stuff like stat tests. D20 vs the number on your sheet. Easy! But it was awful for to-hit rolls, when it had to be modified based on the combatants' armor and attack bonus.mellonbreadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12392046742050134653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-24591164934212177302020-04-03T20:47:11.239-07:002020-04-03T20:47:11.239-07:00Not to mention, how do you test to improve stats?
...Not to mention, how do you test to improve stats?<br />(The more I think about the first question, the more I think the narrower probability spread might negate the need for a save stat altogether, but still curious to hear your response.)Tim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09430001792622615524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-85899232876211992002020-04-03T19:12:33.478-07:002020-04-03T19:12:33.478-07:00So, how do you calculate Save?So, how do you calculate Save?Tim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09430001792622615524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-1381771576869442702020-04-03T17:02:51.123-07:002020-04-03T17:02:51.123-07:00Not a GLOG player, but check in from time to time ...Not a GLOG player, but check in from time to time as I’ve always liked roll under systems, and I find the GLOG has lots of ideas that can be applied in other places. For Flashing Blades, a roll under system, I used 3d6/2, round down, +6 to generate stats, giving a 7-15 range that made character possibilities significantly less extreme, but still varied. I too had thought of just using it as a modifier and converting to Talislanta style mechanics, which is consistently ‘roll high’ with d20+modifiers, but it never quite seemed right. I don’t know why: presentation and ‘look/feel’ are interesting in how they can make something more or less acceptable to different people. I think I went with 2d6/2 instead for my modifiers, and played with lowest 2 of 3d6 and highest 2 of 3d6 as well once I discovered Over the Edge in the middish 90s. None of my players then were interested in such experiments, however.<br /><br />Interestingly, one of the versions of Tal also used d10+modifier for anything a character was unskilled at. I always liked that because it meant aptitude, as represented by the stat bonus, suddenly meant a lot more as you’ve pointed out.Alistairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04631364538623314004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-32259923785557451552020-04-03T15:00:57.869-07:002020-04-03T15:00:57.869-07:00My GLoG changes pretty often--I'm always playt...My GLoG changes pretty often--I'm always playtesting new ideas. <br /><br />I'm dropping the stat. It's just going to be the bonus from here on out because you're correct, it is overly confusing for no good reason.<br /><br />And yes, "roll this number or less to succeed" is wonderfully easy to explain. I will miss that simplicity. I've also seen the opposite, where I get refugees from 5e and they are constantly struggling to get behind the low=good mindset of roll-under. So part of the reason for this change is just to acknowledge the current ecosystem of TTRPGs.Arnold K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13897811045010958297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-63969793807857212382020-04-03T13:38:55.754-07:002020-04-03T13:38:55.754-07:00My two cents on Roll Under:
One of the biggest ad...My two cents on Roll Under:<br /><br />One of the biggest advantages for roll under systems for me was that systems that used them were much easier to explain to new players then bonuses. For context, I run a lot of one shots with people who haven't played before, so I end up introducing a lot of people to new systems. <br /><br />Going 'to do something hard, roll and get less then this stat' is easier to explain then 'you have this stat and you ALSO have the stat BONUS and these are DIFFERENT THINGS' was periodically annoying and a large part of why I stopped running 5e for people who hadn't played RPGs before.<br /><br />I feel like a lot of people value easy first-accessibility of RPGs pretty low (not that every game has to be 100% good to jump in, Into the Odd is my go-to for introducing people nowadays and then we usually end up shifting into other games)<br /><br />GLOG already had bonuses if I recall correctly so this I guess this is a bit of a moot point (as much as this actually HAS a point) for this specifically.<br /><br />Annon #8107https://www.blogger.com/profile/16869484989966434932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-39132798155028715372020-04-03T13:13:00.752-07:002020-04-03T13:13:00.752-07:00Hmm I still prefer the logic of uniform vs normal ...Hmm I still prefer the logic of uniform vs normal distributions and how that affects the "feel" of a chaotic vs lawful roll, but i ran the probabilities and how they scale and I guess the d10 with DC 11 vs 3d6 with DC 16 are pretty similar.maxcan7https://www.blogger.com/profile/12504030224075149157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-66319787762911435542020-04-03T11:40:22.531-07:002020-04-03T11:40:22.531-07:003d6 is totally viable, and mostly achieves the sam...3d6 is totally viable, and mostly achieves the same goal. It's just more addition.<br /><br />I liked the d10 because it seeemed simpler, but now rereading it, maybe 3d6 against the same DC is simpler? There's definitely less addition.Arnold Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-10953835844679342692020-04-03T11:32:25.410-07:002020-04-03T11:32:25.410-07:00I mean, roll-under is great. I might come back ar...I mean, roll-under is great. I might come back around to it.Arnold Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-10437157952148810652020-04-03T11:30:32.337-07:002020-04-03T11:30:32.337-07:001d12+stat totally works. It's less random tha...1d12+stat totally works. It's less random than a d20 roll.<br /><br />2d10+stat totally works. It's also less random than a d20 roll.<br /><br />It's a matter of taste, I think. How much weight do you want to give randomness vs stats? Some people will want more deterministic games. Some people will roll d100 + stat against a DC of 55.Arnold Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-22341879220764791452020-04-03T11:21:20.023-07:002020-04-03T11:21:20.023-07:00I still preach against high synergy. Stay bonuses ...I still preach against high synergy. Stay bonuses don't affect anything except for stat checks. The fewer derived stats the better.<br /><br />If you have Str +7 or higher, you can use a larger damage die when you wield a 2H weapon. I think that's the last vestige. Everything else is a stat check.Arnold Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-82624881360189192412020-04-03T11:16:32.244-07:002020-04-03T11:16:32.244-07:00d20 + atk vs 10/12/14/16.
Atk hasn't changed. ...d20 + atk vs 10/12/14/16.<br />Atk hasn't changed. It ranges from +1 to +4 (for non-fighters)Arnold Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12603155377769597516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-27149308594384121362020-04-03T09:47:52.940-07:002020-04-03T09:47:52.940-07:00So checks are rolled against a DC of 11 or 16. Thi...So checks are rolled against a DC of 11 or 16. This is lovely and elegant. *kisses fingers*<br /><br />Now, do these bonuses directly affect damage? Spells known? I suppose there’s an entire list of common sense answers but I’m wondering where exactly the bonus fits in on the sheet when it comes to non-d20 rolls and class features we’re used to bonuses modifying. The Oblidisideryptchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01045051609040990435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-78873483625861198062020-04-03T09:38:27.004-07:002020-04-03T09:38:27.004-07:00Not same range lol but more or less the same range...Not same range lol but more or less the same rangemaxcan7https://www.blogger.com/profile/12504030224075149157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-78118000305255763872020-04-03T09:37:55.011-07:002020-04-03T09:37:55.011-07:00For lawful vs chaotic dice, wouldn't it be bet...For lawful vs chaotic dice, wouldn't it be better to do 3d6 vs d20 rather than d10 vs d20? Then you have the same range, but a normal vs uniform distribution, which (admittedly somewhat pedantically, but also not) to me seems more dl appropriate for those terms, and has a similar effect. Beside you're more likely to roll towards the middle of the distribution, a character with a higher stat will be more likely to succeed and a character with a lower stat more likely to fail. I haven't looked at the exact outcome distributions so maybe it works out in a way that for some reason you don't like?maxcan7https://www.blogger.com/profile/12504030224075149157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4754170279177021419.post-35624198842200556732020-04-03T02:59:08.431-07:002020-04-03T02:59:08.431-07:00I'm kind of... excited? Don't plan to move...I'm kind of... excited? Don't plan to move from roll-under at the moment, but this is an opportunity to see if we were using roll-under because it worked or because of Arnold's founder effect. The Byzantinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13099463881655126437noreply@blogger.com